Trans

[MarieGreen]

Firstly, my intent in writing this is in no way to offend.

But I feel I cannot share anything in real life because trans has become so polarised. And my views are not.

So I'm posting here with a view of being educated and if I've got it all wrong, please help me?

So, 95% of trans asks as I understand them, I'm down with. I'm happy to refer to anyone with the pronouns they prefer. I think that's just being polite.

I think any trans woman can use any bathroom I go in. From a stupidly practical point of view as on as you realise nobody would bloody well know anyway, you then realise that any ban is both stupid and pointless. It's also not toilets where anyone needs to feel unsafe. Because let's face it,ladies toilet queues are both long as hell but also the friendliest places in the world to be.

I couldn't give a stuff if female representation at work includes trans females. To my mind it's about how you present and are seen which matters here. I also suspect that where I've faced discrimination as a woman, trans women have either had it as bad or worse. So non issue in my book.

There are three areas though where I get more worried and I don't know how to fix.

Female only spaces like prisons and refuges. Not because trans women are likely to be dangerous, in fact they're more likely to be victims. But because of predatory men pretending to be trans women. I don't know how you fix that and both protect trans women and cis women. But as someone who is rape victim, I find the risk of this hard to ignore. And it would be in men's interest to play a game here, even if they're not predatory towards females as in the UK we have so few female prisoners there is no categorisation (so you avoid cat A prisons.)

Sport. It's really hard for me to accept that you can have someone who has the advantages of having been through male puberty including on average greater height but then can ever compete as a woman. I know that activists say that some trans women are shorter and less muscular than cis women but controlling for hormones at the time of competing and even years before doesn't change the body to a genetically female one. Also even not having periods etc will make the playing field less even. I also realise this creates thorny issues from intersex athletes and that needs sorting out too.

Lastly I am in agreement around not giving puberty blockers to teens. I know that's not progressive. But when you are still learning your identity, I cannot agree with something which could impact you forever including the ability perhaps to have kids.

Does this all make me bigoted? . I really hope not. I would love to welcome everyone into my world. I just cannot square the circle on the last three points.

[moonbynight]

From a mod standpoint... this is a trans welcoming and affirming space. While I don't feel that your intentions are bad or that you're bigoted, please be aware that arguments such as these, which mostly represent extremely uncommon circumstances (other than the puberty blockers), are often used to undermine the validity of trans people.

I'm going to leave it for now so that perhaps people more eloquent and knowledgeable than me have the opportunity to respond, but it will be removed if it seems to be getting out of hand.

I may respond from a personal standpoint once I've recovered from covid and have the energy to write.

[MarieGreen]

Hi and thanks for the response. I suppose I asked the questions here because the rest of the world is either 100% accepting or 100% not.

I didn't know if there is space for asking honestly meant questions without reproach? Sorry if I have offended and feel free to close the topic if liked.

Get well soon.

[Orla]

I’m curious as to how likely you think you are to be personally faced with any of the three areas you say you’re uncomfortable with.

My guess is that you won’t ever be. Would these abstract issues prevent you from getting to know a trans person as a neighbor or a friend? In my opinion, that’s what actually matters.

As for being 100% accepting or not, instead of looking at it in that way, you could simply look at some these facets as not impacting your life whatsoever, and therefore you don’t have a cause for concern.

[MarieGreen]

No I accept that in my day to day life as I've explained it's unlikely to impact me directly. As I've explained I do not give a stuff if trans women use female bathrooms and are classed as women in diversity stats for boardrooms if that's helpful.

But as a feminist, rape victim and as someone who has helped two women escape to refuges, that does worry me and I think they're justified worries (at least these spaces are protected by UK law and sensibly so, as I've explained not from trans women but from predatory men trying to create loopholes.)

But I'm also a sports fan. And a blanket acceptance of trans women as the same as cis women is thorny in this area from a safety and fairness perspective. I want to be inclusive but I also want to be fair and safe. I can't see a way to completely square all that. Do I care if trans women have their parkrun times recorded as women? No of course not. I'm always running for my own improvement there.

But it feels a bit like these are things I'm not allowed to discuss as a left wing person and I'm not sure that's helpful? If anything it plays into the hands of those with much more extreme views than me.

If asking questions like this in good faith is not allowed, happily block and ban me if you like.

[Orla]

If your question was not allowed, Moonbynight would have let you know. What responses were you hoping for? The reason I responded as I did is that I simply don’t care at all, personally, about the topics that you say are are a concern for you. They’re not a concern for me and I don’t think about them.

IMO part of being left wing, as you phrased it, means sometimes taking the time to really look at and examine the issues that are sticking points for you. Read articles written by trans athletes, watch videos posted by trans TikTok or YouTube creators, etc. The more understanding that you have, the more comfortable you might feel about some of these issues.

[MarieGreen]

I was trying to build my understanding. As nothing I've read has so far changed my mind (and I had sought to not have confirmation bias). Yet I do recognise the cognitive dissonance of wanting to be inclusive yet also not roll back hard won issues I believe are important as a feminist.

The problem I have is any discussion IRL and online is shut down by either side. Nuance doesn't seem to be permitted. I thought the people here with life experiences may be able to help?

[MarieGreen]

I was thinking about things which may not impact me directly but I still feel like it's right for me to have a view on this morning and this a list of other things I think are important to me as a feminist.

Roe Vs Wade and contraceptive and abortion access
The thin end of the wedge misogynistic comments of politicians (Trump for example)
The inherent misogyny of all fundamentalist religious societies in the world
FGM
The list of women killed at the hands of men that Jess Phillips reads out every year in the UK parliament
The fact well over 90% of rapes go unpunished.

I do feel like the current narrative in this area is doing the same thing which has happened to feminists for decades. Shutting women out of the conversation. Telling them there are more important things to think about and if it doesn't impact your life, you shouldn't have a view. Comments I should add, which are never aimed at anyone referring to difficulties men face.

That bothers me. It bothers me when we cannot have any discussion on a topic when my concerns I've raised above have led to issues. Lia Thomas. Tavistock. Gender GP. Isla Bryson. All of them ending up in last minute decisions rather than some sensible discourse because it feels like conversation isn't allowed

I also think it's important to point out that the concerns are rarely a concern leveled at any trans woman but at how people, often men, could and have manipulated the situation. But even that feels like it's off the cards.

On sport I read absolutely to my mind ridiculous comments yesterday on how because some men are taller than others we should accept someone born a man who has been through puberty as such in women's sport.

I suppose I don't understand why admitting what is to me, a fundamental truth that men and women do not have the same bodies when it comes to sport and that's why we've always had a female category. To deny that, well it to me is wrong and is what kinda makes people feel excluded from this space. It's like being told green is purple.

That doesn't stop me supporting my trans sisters in daily interactions. But I don't see why I'm not allowed a view either? Remember that there are some countries who abused women trough the 60s-80s with testosterone to win glory for their country. I have no faith that some places will not commit similar abusive acts.

So I guess these views put me in conflict with the site. And it's another place I'm not allowed to raise concerns about this. (What *did* happen to nuance people?)

Happily close this thread if liked and delete my account. I tried to but couldn't work out how.